Episode 2-Grief with Kelly Baier

• Transcript of Episode 2-Grief with Kelly Baier

  Kevin: Today we have Kelly Baier with us. Welcome, Kelly. Good to see you.

  Kelly Baier: Thanks, Kevin.

  Kevin: Yeah, thank you so much for joining us on Tools For Change. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about yourself, the kind of work that you like to do, the kind of people who usually you work with, and then the problems they come to you for.

  Kelly Baier: Okay, that sounds good. Let's start with a little bit about my professional background. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist and a board certified behavior analyst. So even after I got my doctorate, I went back and kind of specialized in behavioral therapy which actually paired well, at the time I was doing a lot of autism work, and that has since carried over to now. I did a lot of in-home support for families and for clients. And throughout my professional trainings and everything, I've done a variety of things, and more recently discovered this passion for grief and end of life work. So, the transition kind of went from working with kids and I helped run a, a grief camp for kids who experienced the death of a loved one, and then that was shut down during Covid. And so, I really enjoyed working and supporting those families and wasn't exactly sure how I wanted to continue doing it until I heard this term "death doula" on a podcast actually. And I was like, "What is that? That sounds really intriguing." So I went back and got training as a death doula, and right now I volunteer with hospice as well.

  And so I have this weird mix of grief end of life work. I still see a lot of patients that are on the spectrum that have coexisting anxiety and depression and things like that. I still see a lot of kids and teens, even though I see people of all different ages. There's not enough therapists for everybody in general, but let alone for kids and teens, so I tend to get a lot of those referrals as well. That's just a small little taste of my professional background and kind of where I'm at today.

  Kevin: Thank you so much, Kelly. That was really impressive to hear about all of the different experiences that you've had and the kind of training that you've gotten. I'm wondering if you could also share with us how you got involved in using TEAM-CBT and what appeals to you about using TEAM with the clients that you're working with now.

  Kelly Baier: I first heard of TEAM and took a training probably over a decade ago. And I lived in San Diego at the time, and I took it to help support me in my private practice. I really liked the theory and the background of it. I liked how kind of concrete and user friendly it was, so I used it in a little bit, not as much as I am now, but a little bit in private practice years ago. And then recently came to Feeling Good Institute and had significantly more training and support and supervision and have found it just such a helpful resource. I wish that I would've learned it in graduate school, to be honest. I feel like a lot of therapists are missing out because it is just so beneficial to so many clients. And specifically with the clients I work with, and I use the term clients and patients interchangeably, so forgive me as I go back and forth. I have hospice patients and therapy clients, and so I always just use them interchangeably.

  For my clients that are on the autism spectrum, it's been really helpful because it's concrete. So a lot of, you know, like we do the rating in the beginning of the session and after the session. We can do pros and cons lists, we can do things that are really concrete and that seems to fit well with a lot of my patients that are on the autism spectrum.

  When it comes to grief and end of life issues, a lot of that isn't necessarily anything except for kind of expected emotional change, so I use it in conjunction with just supportive therapy. And then when I notice that maybe there is some cognitive distortions or like things that, you know, people may be thinking a certain way that's actually making them feel worse, then that's when I bring in TEAM. And it's been really helpful in those kind of circumstances. So even when it's a transitional life process that can bring a lot of angst for anybody in that situation, TEAM can still be really supportive, which I have found really interesting. I didn't know that before I started linking this, you know, TEAM and grief and end of life work altogether. And it's been really great, and I've gotten great feedback from my patients and stuff as well.

  Kevin: I love all the things that you're saying, Kelly, especially about, you know, when someone comes to you because they're having problems with grief, often they probably benefit a lot from empathy, right? And someone who listens, is supportive, understands them, doesn't need them to change, and lets them talk about what they're grieving about and kind of process-oriented empathy; maybe everything that they need from you. Is that true?

  Kelly Baier: Yeah, sometimes that's it.

  Kevin: Yeah. And I would imagine that probably a big portion of the people who come to you who are struggling with grief, maybe they're coming to you because they expected to grieve, obviously, right? We know that, let's say we're experiencing the death of a loved one. I think most people are aware that that's going to be really painful in the beginning. Maybe that pain has gone on longer than they expected, or it's starting to impact most areas of their life and making it difficult for them to function or enjoy life. It's having some kind of a major impact that maybe they weren't expecting. And in that case, maybe that's when tools of TEAM-CBT might be more called for, because there's maybe, along with the grief, there's something like depression that's going on, or anxiety. Am I thinking this through correctly? Is that what you're noticing with your grief patients?

  Kelly Baier: Exactly, yeah. You got it right.

  Kevin: And so, I'm just thinking of the people who are maybe listening to this and thinking you, they're looking for a therapist who has a lot of experience helping people with grief. And when they come to see you or me or whatever therapist they're going to, there's going to be an initial phase, where you're getting to know them, and I guess, we would call that assessment, right? Learning about the person and finding out a little bit about their life and what they've been experiencing, what they're coming to you for help with and how that's impacting them. And maybe checking in and seeing if there is some kind of a diagnosis of depression or anxiety or a mood problem other than those things that's - I don't know how to say this other than like maybe multiplying the grief, or I guess, complicating the grief. Is that true?

  Kelly Baier: Yes.

  Kevin: Okay. So when someone is coming to you and you're helping figure out what are the problems and how would you help them, What is that assessment process like? Like, let's say I was interested in coming to you and you just wanted to let me know what to expect from the beginning of therapy.

  Kelly Baier: For me personally, when I use TEAM-CBT with grief clients, one of my favorite things that TEAM-CBT does is that, it doesn't pressure patients into doing anything. If you don't want to change, you don't have to change. So if you're feeling really anxious and depressed, but you're okay with that, that's fine by me. I'm still here for you as a therapist, and we can work on other things, or we can utilize support and empathy, and that's okay with me too. So I really like that flexibility. And I like being able to be open and honest with my patients and saying, "Here's what I see, what does it feel like to you?" I am invested to support you in whatever that looks like. Whether it means addressing the grief or not addressing the grief, whenever it works for you is okay with me because everybody's kind of on their own trajectory.

  There's no right or wrong way to do grief, and it's just so nice to be able to have a person alongside with you, to support you through whatever may come up. And so in those times, we may be assessing. One of the terms we use is assessing for resistance. So, what are the bad things about changing? What are the good things about changing? And being able to have an open, honest conversation with patients about the possible drawbacks of feeling better; like, what an awesome experience to be able to be open and just sit with the patient and some of these thoughts and feelings.

  Kevin: I'm just sitting here really loving everything that you're saying, Kelly, and I'll start with that idea that everybody grieves differently, that there's no right or wrong way to grieve. And it seems like when a person is coming to a therapist and they're struggling with grief, we don't want to underestimate the power of just listening well and being supportive and being heard and understood by a person who doesn't need anything from you. I mean, I can see you right now, people listening to this can't see you, but as I look at your facial expression, and I imagine speaking to you, I'm just thinking if I was really struggling with grief right now, how powerful that would be to just connect with you, have you listened to me, be supportive of me, no pressure to change anything. I can just be the way that I am and have somebody, I think you said it very well, be alongside me as I'm going through this process.

  And I agree with you. That's what I love about TEAM-CTB, the fact that we call it client-centered. And what we mean by that is, it's a collaboration. This isn't expert-patient. There's nobody above anybody else. It's people who are equal, who are working together and collaborating. And the agenda of the treatment is set by the patient. We don't try to convince somebody, "I think that you need to feel differently than you do because there's something wrong with the way that you are feeling and handling these things. And I'm going to teach you how to be different than you are." That's not what we do. And I certainly would never want to participate in that. And it doesn't sound like you would ever do that. And you know, part of the podcast here is introducing people to the concepts of TEAM and helping them understand what it is that we're talking about when we say TEAM.

  I mentioned in the previous episode that TEAM has meaning on two levels. So on one level, it's what you just described to us really beautifully, that we're a team together, helping this person through this really troubled time in their life. And we don't force change on anyone. Someone comes to us and says, I want someone to talk to. And if they're just looking for support and someone to listen; great, that's what we're here for. If you're saying, I actually would like to feel differently than I do because of how it's impacting my life, then great, let's take a look at what we could do to help you with that. We are a team working together.

  And then TEAM is also an acronym that stands for what it is that we're doing in therapy, like the T=Testing, E=Empathy, A=Assessment of resistance and M=Methods. So, so far today, I think we've talked a little bit about testing and a lot about empathy. So with testing, you might be having a client take a brief mood survey, before and after you meet with them just so you can see how they're feeling. Do you use that with the patients that you're helping with grief?

  Kelly Baier: I always try to. Sometimes they are just treading water and trying to get through the day and it's not something that they're able to do at that time, so then I check in verbally with them. So I still do some sort of check in of, how are you today? But to be honest, sometimes it just doesn't work when, you know, I'm trying to email and they're like, "Look, I haven't looked at my emails in weeks," and it's just too much. They're too overwhelmed, and that's okay for me too, but we also want to assess where you are because it's important for me to see how you're changing and how best I can support you through that process.

  Kevin: Well, Kelly, I am trying not to use too dramatic of language, but I just get blown away by you and your loving, warm, kind approach to all of this. You know, to say that you're not going to even force testing on people, right? Like when somebody's coming to you and they're overwhelmed with grief, I just imagine how painful that is and how much our lives are turned upside down. And we haven't even looked at our emails in weeks and we're just trying to tread water, I think you said, right? Like, just struggling to keep things, you know, regular day to day life, things taken care of. Maybe it's too much for somebody to take a brief mood survey before and after the session. And so, you adapt that for them; you find a way of finding out how are you feeling and tracking that. I think that's beautiful. And I also like that you're considering it important to do some tracking so that we can monitor progress and see if things are going the direction that we wanted to go in, right?

  And then we talked a little bit about the E=Empathy quite a bit, that often, especially when somebody is seeking counseling for grief, that maybe most what they need is somebody to listen and be supportive. And you mentioned something that I really liked too, regarding the A=Assessment of resistance. One of the tools of that part of our therapy model would be what's called Positive Reframing. And that's where we take a look at the way that a person is feeling, and we don't look at it as something, but it's anything wrong with them, but as a representation of all the things that are right with them. Imagine somebody who's grieving and feeling overwhelmed by sadness. Well, you know, that sadness in a way is okay, isn't it? What do you think about that?

  Kelly Baier: Yeah, I think it's natural and normal. And that's what I love about that assessment of resistance is being able to look at why would you be feeling sad now? Why would you want to continue to feel sad? why would you want to kind of turn it down a little bit maybe? And maybe it's too strong of a sadness and being able to talk about that and think about it, because a lot of times we just are reacting. We're not choosing these things, we're just reacting. And so, if we can be more intentional and thoughtful about why we're doing something; great, you don't have to change, but let's kind of know why we're doing what we're doing.

  Kevin: Yeah. I'm just imagining somebody who's working with you and they're coming to you for the grief counseling and they've received lots of empathy from you. And let's say that they've accepted an invitation to work on a problem, you know, I am responding in a way that I don't like, to stressful situations. I'll just choose... I'll think of myself, you know, when I'm, when I'm feeling overwhelmed by things like this, I might become really short with people, right? And I might come to somebody because I've just noticed that I'm losing my temper more often than I want to. Let's say that I said that that was the problem that I wanted to work on with you; what's the next thing that we would do after discovering that that's the problem that I want help with?

  Kelly Baier: And that's a great example because where it puts me as a therapist is to try to conceptualize what's going on with you. Are you being short because - is it anxiety? Is it depression? Is it just a habit that, you know, you've kind of always been like, and you've just fallen back into that same habit? And to explore that with you and see where is this kind of coming from, because realistically, if it's a mood issue versus a habit issue, I would come at it and suggest different methods for that. And so the great thing is, we explore it together. And so a lot of times, even with my patients, I will be totally upfront and say, "Wow, I'm not sure if this is a mood issue or a habit issue. Let's talk about more about it." TEAM-CBT is not something where there's a wizard behind the curtain pulling all the things. We're just open and honest about it, and here's what we can offer and let's figure this out together, because like you said, we're a team, we're on the same level. I don't all of a sudden have all of these solutions for you. I have some tools that you might find helpful, so let's try to work at these things together. But that would be my next step is to try to conceptualize, "Well, where is this coming from? What's going on with you?" So, that we can come about the way that's going to give you the most support.

  Kevin: Yeah. And I'm thinking my way through our model here, and for people who are interested in therapy and wondering what it would be like to be in therapy. Let's imagine I've had a parent who has died and I've been experiencing a lot of grief about it. And I'm coming to you because I'm getting short with my children, and it's different for me. It's unusual. I'm surprised by it and I'm bothered by it, and I don't like the way that I become very angry with them when they're just being kids and just acting like themselves. And it's usually happening when I feel overwhelmed by all the details that I'm having to take of - I'm helping take care of my father's estate and I'm overwhelmed by that, and then I'm really short with the people that I love. And if that was a problem that I wanted to work on with you, and let's say that you've conceptualized that as a mood problem; then what would be the logical next step for working on that specific problem with me, do you think?

  Kelly Baier: One of the things that we try to integrate early into TEAM-CBT is this use of a daily mood log and CBT, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, your cognitive thoughts are going to affect your behaviors, and so it's important to know what are these thoughts. So what are the thoughts? What are the feelings? What is it specifically that we want to change? What's the situation? And so, when I'm trying to get more information with a patient, oh, here's the issue that is coming up. Great, let's get all the details of it so we know exactly what is going on, because you can't choose most of your situations in life, only how you react to it, and so let's look how we're reacting to it.

  So you put down, you know, like, I blew up at my kids over dinner or whatever it was. And then there's a big chunk at the top of this daily mood log that's, "Well, what were your feelings about that?" So you were angry at the time. Were you also feeling anxious about things with your father's estate? Do you have a lot of sadness that's continuing to come up? What are these feelings? They're all okay. And it's really nice when we can put it all down. "Oh yeah, look at all this, I actually even had guilt in there! And I was ashamed about something." Well, great, let's put this all down so we can see what's triggering some of these reactions. And then we go down, and let's list some of the thoughts. You feel like you're not getting any support from the rest of your family. You feel like you're not doing a good enough job. You feel like your loved one would not agree with the things you're doing. Whatever it is, let's look at that.

  And then is it something that we want to alter any of these thoughts? Are there some, what we would call in TEAM-CBT, cognitive distortions? So, unhelpful ways of thinking. Sometimes when our thoughts, some of them can just be truths. My dad is dead. Yeah, that's a truth. We're not going to be able to change that. But, what are some of the thoughts associated with that? So, he would not agree with what I'm doing. Well, let's look into that. Is there any cognitive distortions there? I am not a good enough parent because I'm spending all this other time working on wrapping up his estate and his own affairs. Well, let's look into that. Are there any cognitive distortions there? Is there a different way of thinking that might make you feel better? I even use that in my own personal life. Once I learned it in TEAM, when I'm overwhelmed in my own personal life, I'm like, "Oh, great, let me pull out my daily mood log and see what's going on." And when you get something that is brewing internally, external, sometimes that in and of itself can just be so beneficial. And then when we get these thoughts and feelings down on paper with our patients, then we can utilize so many different methods on working to support change if that's what they're choosing to do.

  Kevin: Yeah. And I want to slow down and take a look at the process that you just described to us a little bit. So initially, you were saying let's look at a moment when you kind of exploded at one of your kids, right? And you'd use this tool called a Daily Mood log. And the first thing we do on a mood log is write down just one time that that was a problem. Because in that, when we can find recovery from the problem in that one moment at a time, it affects all the times that this is a problem for us. And in that one moment, we're going to discover everything that the person needs to work on in order to find that recovery.

  And you described beautifully at the top of the mood law, we would write down the moment where this was a problem, and then the different things that the person was feeling in that moment. And then, we pause and we might talk briefly about how our negative feelings actually happened because of our own thoughts. And the situation that I was in when I was upset and kind of blew up at my kids wasn't causing my feelings; it was what I was telling myself about that situation. There were thoughts that I was having that caused my feelings, like sadness, fear, anger, I think you said shame, guilt - whatever they might be. And then we help the person figure out, "Okay, ooh, you were feeling ashamed in that moment. What's something that you were telling yourself that led to shame?" And one of the thoughts that you threw out there that a person might be having is, "Well I'm not a good enough parent because I'm not there for my kids often enough right now," and we could write that down.

  And then once we get all of those, those feelings and those thoughts written down on paper - what I really like what you said that sometimes just getting the internal to be external, like to take those things that have been brewing inside of us and get them out and share them with another person is so powerful. And even when we're working on a mood log by ourselves, just be able to see it all written down in our handwriting, and there it is in black and white, that's what I've been telling myself, and these are the feelings that it's been causing. It's powerful to understand ourselves on that level. I like to tell patients that when they're working on a mood log by themselves, that moment where they write down all the thoughts that led to their feelings, is like showing empathy for themselves. Really, really understanding themselves in that upsetting moment and what this was like for them.

  And then when we get to that part of the model, we would usually probably want to pause for a moment and think about some of the resistance tools that you mentioned earlier. Because you said that one of the things that's so beautiful about TEAM is, we don't help somebody change something unless they convince us that they want our help. And so then we might want to check in with them with something like, you know, what would you like to be different about this? Is there anything about this that you would like to be different? Like, if our work together was really successful today what would that look like in your life? Some kind of version of maybe what people would call a miracle cure question. If a miracle occurred and this was successful, what's the change you're looking for? And then we have some tools to explore why their thoughts and feelings are actually helping them in that moment, and how they're all signs of things that are right with them. And we bring all that to conscious awareness.

  So when I'm feeling guilty for losing my temper or for not being present with my kids, or I'm feeling angry, I shouldn't be having to deal with this right now, this is too overwhelming; whatever my thoughts might be. Why do those thoughts make sense? How is it helping me to tell myself those things? And what does it show about my values that's really powerful and beautiful that I would think and feel this way in this situation? And I'm talking a lot right now, sorry about that. But when we do bring all those things to conscious awareness, and we say; "Okay, there's always great things that the way that you've been thinking and feeling have been helping you." Maybe you could show us, like, let's say I'm that patient who's just brought to light all these beautiful, great reasons to continue feeling angry and hurt and sad and anxious in this situation, I brought all those things to awareness. How would you may be potentially bridge that gap between wanting to stay the same and possibly making some change if I want to?

  Kelly Baier: A couple things I wanted to mention that were on my mind too, and then I'll get back to what you just asked me. One is that I was realizing that with my grief clients, so much of their support system is also grieving, that that's why it's so nice to be able to come in to see a therapist because everybody is affected by the loss of this loved one. And so, it can be really hard to get the support from your traditional support system. And so I just kind of wanted to mention that, that's why it's nice to be able to have somebody who is in a different place and is not currently grieving and can help support you through that. And then to kind of piggyback on what you were just saying, I see a lot of people who have grief that have associated this uncomfortable sadness as "I need to carry this with me in order to honor my loved one." If I don't feel bad, then that means that I don't miss them anymore. And that's one of the biggest forms of resistance I see in grief work is, "Well, what does this mean if I'm feeling better? Does that mean that I don't miss my loved one? Does that mean that I don't love them anymore? Does that mean I'm going to forget about them?" And to sit in that with them and assess that in the moment, because it can be really, really scary to say, "Yeah, I want to feel better even though this loved one is no longer with me. What does that mean then when all of a sudden I'm feeling better?"

  Kevin: Kelly, that was so beautiful, what you just said. And just thinking if I've lost somebody recently and I'm noticing that I feel very sad and kind of hopeless and that makes so much sense because the person meant so much to me. I love them so much. And also, an advantage of that feeling is that it's my way of honoring them and loving them. That it would be kind of weird or maybe even against my values to be happy without this person that I loved so much in my life. Like, maybe there'd be something wrong with me if I did feel better. And so, obviously I value honoring my loved one showing how important they were to me. My sadness shows that this is a significant serious loss that's meaningful. And so, I can just imagine how powerful it must be when you say to somebody, given that all of that is true, it's hard for me to understand why you would want to feel any differently. And inviting them to either accept that they wouldn't or convince you that they do want to change and why. Do you find that people sometimes do still want to feel better, even though their sadness is such a beautiful expression of their love for their person that has died?

  Kelly Baier: Yeah. So in the assessment of resistance phase, it's nice to be able to talk about, like if you want to feel better; like we talk about the magic button, would you push the magic button so that you're no longer sad about this loss? And people are like, "Well, no, that's weird. I wouldn't want to. I don't want to feel like this, but it would also be weird to not have any sadness." So then we talk about the dials, do you want to turn it down at all? So with the reasonable amount of sadness that you feel like would be a good fit in your life right now, do you have a specific goal for feeling better at the end of the session, versus next week, versus next year? Do you want to kind of keep it all the same? Just to kind of get an idea of their own expectation of how they want these dials to be.

  And so, like in your previous example with the anger, it sounded like, oh yeah, that patient would've wanted to turn down their anger so that they weren't so reactive to their own children. What about their sadness? They have a level of sadness as well because of everything that's going down. And we can see this - going back to the daily mood log, here's all of your emotions you listed. How do you feel about these levels of emotions? Do you want to turn any up? Do you want to turn any down? And being able to kind of explore that, that you don't have to get rid of all of it. That's what I think a lot of patients are like, "Well, I don't want to get rid of all my sadness because I'm grieving, this is normal, but it's affecting me negatively and it's affecting my family negatively." And you're like, "Oh, wow, that is challenging." That's all kind of mixed up together, that like, part of you wants to give up the sadness, part of you wants to hold onto it. So let's explore this and see, it doesn't have to be a black and white issue. Maybe we can just dial it down for you, and that's a more comfortable place to be right now.

  Kevin: And Kelly, an idea popped into my mind while you were saying that, which is, it also sounds like you're really setting up what relapse prevention would look like too. Because when it comes to losing people that we love and ending the overwhelming grief that might be stopping us from living the life that we want to live anymore; it's not like we suddenly feel better one day and then we never feel sadness again about this person who's gone. Like, in a way that sadness is going to be with us, probably always. I'm just thinking of my own life. I'm never going to be not a little bit sad about losing my grandparents and my father. And when I think of them, I have happy memories of them, but I also do miss them too. And so, that idea of how much is too much?

  When I'm initially overwhelmed with a recent loss and maybe that was going on for longer than I wanted to, and I got some help from a therapist. And once I decided, "Well, I want to turn this down a little bit so that I can live my life, even though I still do have this sadness with me." I'm probably going to have moments in my life where it goes way up higher than what I wanted to dial it down to. And maybe a big part of recovery from this problem is accepting that. Accepting that as human beings, we're going to have our good days in our bad days, even after we've gotten better in therapy. And I would imagine that a big part of relapse prevention with somebody who's recovering from a complicated grief problem, is understanding you're going to have bad days again. But you've got something that you can use to help yourself get out of those bad days when that happens; do you find that that's what you're sharing with people?

  Kelly Baier: Yes, exactly. And grief is like, we use the analogy all the time of its waves, and it'll come in waves and you're like, "Oh, I think I'm over it now." And then a wave will come and hit you. Maybe it's because the holidays are coming, or there was a graduation that your loved one was unable to attend. And sometimes it just it can feel out of the blue and other times you can kind of feel it coming on. But grief is kind of always there. Sometimes it's a big wave, sometimes it's just a little wave that laps up and you kind of think about them and feel it and then move on. And there's a great quote about learning to dance with a limp. So you hurt yourself, you went through this trauma and it's like having this hurt leg and it heals, "heals," but it's never the same. And you just learn to dance to go through life with this limp and you just adapt to it. And it doesn't mean that sometimes you're not going to have that pain and the hurt and it's all there.

  The great part about TEAM-CBT is we are trying to fill our patient's toolboxes. Here's all the things that you have found helpful in our work together. And so part of that relapse prevention is, well when those moments come, because they will, like, let's just be honest, no matter who we are, there will be hard times in our life. Let's go back to that toolbox and see what might be helpful for us to just do on our own. And then every single therapist is like, we can stop doing sessions right now, now, but if you need a check in session, if you need to come back and get a few new tools because the problem is a little bit different, we'll fill your toolbox up with some new tools and send you on your way. It's not about us. It's about giving our patients the tools to be able to manage their life the way that they want.

  Kevin: Yeah. Well, Kelly, I really love talking about this with you and I love listening to you and the way that you express things. And I think that we're getting close to the end of our time together for today. So, I'd like to learn a little bit about how potential clients of yours find you. Do you have your own website that you use or are you just strictly on the Feeling Good Institute website? How do people find Kelly Baier?

  Kelly Baier: I am in the works on my website. I'm revamping it, so that will be linked from the Feeling Good Institute website, but you can find me on the FGI website for right now. And one of the unique things that I do too is because I see a lot of people in their end of life, they can't come to the therapy office, so I'm more than happy to travel as long as it's, you know, somewhat in the South Bay of the Bay Area of California. I'm happy to go to homes. I do that for multiple patients who are no longer physically able to leave the house. That's a whole other topic, you know, the lack of support for people who are at the end of their life in terms of their mental health needs, so that's something else that's unique to me. You can contact me with any questions, anything that people might want support with or just resources for. Go ahead and go on to the Feeling Good Institute website and you can find me there.

  Kevin: Yeah, I think that they could maybe also reach out to you by email. Do potential clients sometimes email you? So that would be Kelly Baier. So that's kellybaier@feelinggoodinstitute.com.

  Kelly Baier: I think they shortened it. I think it's Kellyb@feelinggoodinstitute.com.

  Kevin: Oh my goodness. I'm so glad you just corrected me because I don't want to send people off the wrong direction. So Kellyb@feelinggoodinstitute.com, they can contact you. And I guess I just want to make sure, because I sort of focused in on the grief work that you do and I'm realizing that's a big part of what you do. But it sounds like you're also helping people who are at the end of their own life. Is that right?

  Kelly Baier: Yeah.

  Kevin: And then also helping people who aren't experiencing grief or end of life problems and want help with depression and anxiety, and that would be children and adults. And then you also have these special skills of working with people who are on the autism spectrum with depression and anxiety because you have some special skills and training with how to use therapy with someone who's experiencing autism as well. I think that that's just really great. I feel like I need five episodes with you, Kelly, to learn about all the things that you have expertise in. It's been really wonderful chatting with you.

  Sometimes I wonder what's it going to be like to talk to somebody for an hour. Are we going to have enough to talk about? And I feel like I've scratched the surface with you, Kelly. I want to know more. So for those people listening, if you'd like to know more about Kelly and find out about possibly working with her, again, you can reach out to her at Kellyb@feelinggoodinstitute.com. It's Kelly with a "y", and then the Feeling Good Institute website is really easy. It's just feelinggoodinstitute.com. And you'll notice on that welcome page that there's a real big good menu of choices. And one of the things that you can choose is therapist directory. And then you can just put in Kellyb and it'll bring you up to Kelly's page where you're able to make an appointment for a free 15 minute consultation with Kelly.

  And I'll say you can do the same thing with me as well. You can look at Kevin Cornelius there and I'm available for both consultations too. And then when you have your website ready to go, Kelly, let me know and I'll see if I can add that to some kind of show notes for this recording so that people can find your website too, because I'm sure people would love to do that. So I just want to say, Kelly, how much I enjoyed talking to you today as always. And thank you so much for joining us.

  Kelly Baier: Yeah, thanks Kevin for doing this because I want the information to get out about what a helpful form of therapy this is. And so, I appreciate you taking the time to do all these wonderful interviews and I look forward to hearing other people's interviews I hear on your podcast, so thank you.

  Kevin: All right. Thank you.