Episode 1-Perfectionism with Cheryl Delaney

• Transcript of Episode 1-Perfectionism with Cheryl Delaney

  Kevin: Okay. So we've got Cheryl Delaney with us today, and Cheryl, thank you so much for joining me on my first effort as an episode of "Tools for Change". That's the name of what I'm doing here. I'd love it if you would just tell people a little bit about who you are and what you do, especially thinking about people who may be looking for a therapist.

  Cheryl: Sure, yeah. I am Cheryl Delaney. I'm a TEAM therapist located in Atlanta, Georgia, and I work specifically with perfectionists.

  Kevin: Wonderful. And when you say TEAM therapist, maybe you could tell us a little bit about what you mean by that. Because you know some people are going to maybe find this on my website and see a little bit of a description of TEAM. But I'd really like to, especially when it comes to using TEAM with somebody who is struggling with perfectionism, maybe you could describe that to me like you would, to somebody who was considering working with you.

  Cheryl: Sure. This is intimidating because Kevin, you know more about TEAM or have been doing it for longer than I have. TEAM CBT is a form of therapy developed by Dr. David Burns and I think sets up therapy to be the most successful possible form that I've encountered. It really kind of builds a structure and a frame around the therapy and the connection that makes it possible for therapists to connect with whoever shows up in their office, makes it possible for that person to get what they need from the therapy, and leads to, in my opinion, the most lasting change and measurable change, in my opinion.

  So, how that would apply for perfectionist is, let's see. Let me think of somebody. I kind of break things down in my head into people who are perfectionists and are anxious all the time, and people who are perfectionist and depressed all the time and in anxiety. And that's, I think the type that people most often associate with the word perfectionism is this type A always moving, very driven and successful. Those people might have a lot to show for their hard work and their drive but can't seem to benefit from it, because emotionally they're always worried about what's coming next. There's no peace or calm or sense of enjoyment because as soon as you reach one goal, it's immediately onto the next. And so, for that person, just to explain the why TEAM is called TEAM we would measure how anxious they are. We would do some testing, so that's what the T in TEAM and they would fill out a survey to rate their symptoms. And that way we would both, myself and the client would both have a pretty good sense of where they are where when they're coming in. Because sometimes someone presents and they seem very calm and measured, and then you'll see the number on their score and realize, inside there is got to be a lot of turmoil because their anxiety is kind of in the extreme level. And you're smiling there, have you had that experience yourself?

  Kevin: Oh, very, very much so. I think that, you know, especially when you think about anxious people, they're really good at hiding their true feelings. I would put myself in the category of struggling with anxiety quite a bit, so part of that is trying to hide real feelings because you don't want to bother other people or put the spotlight on one self. At least I'll speak for myself. I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself if I'm feeling anxious. And so, I love what you're saying that the testing is really essential because when somebody takes - a very short, we're talking about a five item, not multiple choice, but a five item survey where you're rating how strong different feelings are, you can see right away, oh, that's how anxious I am. And that scale is zero through 20.

  And so I usually talk to people about how one of our goals when probably together we stay, I would work with them in agreement on this goal, is to get that anxiety level down to like, below five. Like between zero and four is kind of the ordinary range. You know, life without anxiety is not really possible or probably desirable. And I like what you were saying, Cheryl. Cheryl was mentioning that TEAM is a framework for what makes psychotherapy effective, so that we can make therapy as effective as possible. And it's also an acronym for what we're doing in the therapy session, the T E A M. So, so far we're talking about how testing helps you, Cheryl, with working with somebody who might be struggling with an anxiety-based perfectionism. Anything else you want to say about the testing, or do you want to talk a little bit about empathy and connection because that seems really important, right?

  Cheryl: Yeah, I was already getting excited about that. And I mentioned earlier that part of the job of the framework is to make that connection reliable so that I can connect with my client and they have a way of letting me know if I'm doing a good job of that. Because we also measure how well this session went at the end. Clients fill out a survey there too, to say whether the empathy was effective. But when it comes to forming that connection, one of the things that helps us mortals do is to get out of the sort of empathy habits that can actually create more distance between us and the person that we're talking to. So instead of giving advice, instead of saying, "Oh yeah, that the exact same thing happened to me," or "I know exactly how you're feeling." We have these structured tools for really understanding and checking in with the other person about how it is their feeling and getting a lot of rich detail so that we know a little bit what it's like to be living with that much anxiety.

  Kevin: Yeah. And I'm wondering if you could bring to life for us right now on a more personal or emotional level, like what it is that you're empathizing with when someone comes to you and has a lot of perfectionism that comes across as anxiety. Because I think that... am I right that - well, and by the way, maybe this is a good time to mention what your website is, what is your website?

  Cheryl: It's bitbybitcounseling.com.

  Kevin: Bitbybitcounseling.com, and I really like your website. And I remember there being some personal elements to it where you share a little bit of your own story. And I don't mean to put you on the spot right now, but maybe there's something about perfectionism that you've experienced that's drawn you to like wanting to work with people who struggle with this problem. Is that the case

  Cheryl: Completely. Yes. I think I have identified in myself, I don't know, like seven different diagnoses that I could connect with.

  Kevin: Only seven?

  Cheryl: At least, I said at least. But social anxiety is certainly in there. And I used to have more generalized anxiety, but the social anxiety still sticks around. And I haven't really done the work that I know I would need to do to get it to be lower than it is right now. I'm kind of working my way there through, you know, there was some lower hanging fruit on the diagnosis tree.

  Kevin: Okay.

  Cheryl: But when... Go ahead.

  Kevin: I was just going to say, when you say social anxiety, I think that probably perfectionists who are struggling with social anxiety are probably really overly concerned maybe with what other people think of them and wanting to make a really good impression all the time. Does that ring true for you? Is that what you're noticing in clients that you work with?

  Cheryl: Certainly. I'm even noticing it in myself right now as I'm thinking about this being a recording.

  Kevin: I'm right there with you. I'll just put a disclaimer out there right now, this is not going to be perfect. But anybody who's watching or listening to this, I'll speak for myself, I'll make some mistakes today. And actually that's one way of addressing social anxiety, is a little bit of self-disclosure or just even naming what our feelings are. I guess to kind of help us structure our conversation, I'm wondering, you know, the person who comes to you who may notice their own discomfort in social settings; maybe you could even explore a little bit like what are the different types of social anxiety perfectionism problems that people have come to you with. And obviously we're not going to say anything that anybody could identify themselves with. But is that something that would be okay to explore a little bit? Like, what are people struggling with when they want to be perfect in their social settings?

  Cheryl: Sure. The two big things that come to mind are the sense that I need to be really impressive in order for people to like me. And I need people to like me in order to be happy and fulfilled. And then the other big one is, I can't have any negative emotions, especially anger. And if I do, it's best to pretend that it's not there and hide it as well as possible.

  Kevin: Okay. I'm just taking some notes because I really like what you're saying here and I'm learning from it as we're talking. This need to impress other people so they'll like you, and then in fact also, even that need to be liked by other people would be kind of a hallmark of social anxiety. And then also, you know, negative feelings not being okay, especially anger.

  Cheryl: Yeah. And I can relate to all of those. Those are all so pretty active for me. And so when I say, you know, sometimes when therapists talk about a need to be liked, it kind of has a negative connotation or some judgment attached to it. And I just want to point out that I think that that is a very - almost universal and very positive human characteristic.

  Kevin: Totally agree with you. You were just making me think of, you know, we were talking about that TEAM acronym the A equals assessment of resistance, in which we often use what's called positive reframing to look at what's good about our so-called negative feelings. So it's pretty easy, you know, you just said really beautifully to notice that there's something beneficial about being concerned about what other people think of us and of wanting to be liked by people. It probably motivates people to be their best selves with other people with kindness and be nice and make others comfortable and enjoy being around us so that people will like us.

  Cheryl: Yeah.

  Kevin: What were you going to say?

  Cheryl: I was just going to say, even if you take that up to a society level, it's kind of what makes it possible for us all to function together.

  Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. It would be so... we would have no civilization if we didn't care at all about people liking us.

  Cheryl: Yeah. Yeah.

  Kevin: Yeah. I like the way you said that. I hadn't thought about that yet as a possible positive reframe for even just being a nice person or wanting other people to like us. Is there a downside to being really concerned with others liking us and the need to impress and to be liked?

  Cheryl: Yeah. So a few that just come off the top of my head, and it kind of brings me back to some of my darkest times when I really felt very lonely and at risk all the time. Every time I would go, even to the grocery store, let alone, you know, a family gathering or a party with friends; I just felt like at any moment I was going to say something that would get me kind of ejected from community. I'd go home and play in my head again, what I had said, what other people had said, "Was there something in there that could get me kicked out?" And it also makes people, my past self included, avoid situations where we think that those things might come up. So, it really can sort of increase any sense of loneliness. It might kind of start out by feeling disconnected when I'm with people and then suddenly I'm just by myself entirely because I just avoid those situations as much as possible, and leads to so much disconnection.

  Kevin: Yeah. I think that's really important what you just said, Cheryl, because when we're struggling with everything you just described, that fear of being rejected when we're interacting even with somebody that we run into at the grocery store who's a stranger, even an employee at the grocery store, there's this fear of being rejected by them. And so, it makes sense actually that people would avoid things that they're afraid of so they don't have to experience that fear. But I heard you saying that the avoidance has, like, it's a huge downside, where eventually a person could wind up just being very lonely and isolated and alone all the time because of that fear. You said it in an even better way, you said something like, of being kicked out of different communities, of being kind of ostracized almost as what that sounded like. And I wondering is there any other kind of downside to avoiding things that we're afraid of, like interacting with other people or maybe any other fears that might be related to perfectionism?

  Cheryl: Well, it increases the anxiety associated with the activity. And it also in some ways, it makes it harder to jump back in again, both because we're not used to... because our anxiety has increased, but also our skills have decreased.

  Kevin: Oh, wow. Of course. Yeah, if I'm avoiding talking to people because I'm afraid, and I definitely have noticed that about myself at different periods of my life, then I'm going to get kind of crummy at talking to people, and then when I do interact with them, it may not go so well. Especially because I've now turned this into a big scary problem in my mind by avoiding it and treating it as if it's dangerous. And then I'm probably not going to be my most socially skilled self. Even if I do have some conversational skills or ability to talk to people, I'm going to be so amped up with my own fears that when I do interact with people, I might kind of create kind of this confirmation that things are going to go badly. So I'm predicting in myself, "If I talk to these people, it's going to go wrong and I'm going to embarrass myself and oh, God." I fumble when I speak to people, and then I'd see that just proves it, I need to now avoid even more. And so, it can become kind of like a prison of fear, right?

  Cheryl: Yeah, a downward spiral.

  Kevin: Wow. Well, as we're talking about this, Cheryl, I feel like because you've been so kind to share that some of this has been what you've experienced, I definitely recognize this in myself too. Like, I can remember maybe in a younger period of my life, I'm living on my own in a big city and struggling to kind of find my way and build whatever my career and personal life was going to be. And then these social interactions take on so much importance, and avoidance lead into these problems that we talked about. So, I think that I'm just imagining if I was a person listening to this right now, and I have been having my own struggles with anxiety, and maybe I can relate to a lot of what it is that you've said I've noticed, you know, social anxiety in myself or perfectionism in myself. What would you say to a person who's come to you because they want help that could maybe give some hope that this is a problem that could get better? Like, let's say I came to you and I'm thinking, "Maybe I want to have therapy with you, Cheryl. What do you got for me?" What could make this better, do you think?

  Cheryl: Are you leading towards the M in TEAM, which is methods, or are you asking for the...?

  Kevin: I guess maybe the M and TEAM being methods would be a logical place to go. And I'm thinking also, like, I know when you talk to people about this, like maybe in an initial consultation you do give them some hope that this problem could get better. So, I'm curious like how you do that. What's the hope if I wanted help?

  Cheryl: Yeah. Well, let me say, I know I kind of opened up about the fact that it's not gone for me yet, but it has vastly improved over where it used to be. The grocery store example that I gave is true for my life. I used to avoid talking to anybody at a grocery store as much as possible. Now I embarrass my teenage daughter because she wants nobody to ever know that she exists. And I'm like, "Hi, I need some help at the dressing room over here." It has gotten so much better for me, and I've seen it with clients and it's such an amazing feeling to see big changes in their lives and what they've accomplished by confronting their fear essentially and deciding not to let the spiral keep going.

  Kevin: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about kind of what that takes. Like, like what does treatment for perfectionism look like and social anxiety?

  Cheryl: So it really depends on the specific person, but if we're talking about social anxiety, then a big part of it would be talking to people and confronting that fear head on, and both practicing, showing up and engaging with people, even though there might be some anxiety going on. So it's not necessarily demolishing the anxiety entirely, you know, some of it is, I'm still going to get kind of fluttery and I'm going to be here anyway and I'm going to talk and see what happens. And it's also practicing, connecting and doing the things that you talked about, like self-disclosure and acknowledging the feelings that are going on.

  Kevin: Okay. So I'm wondering if I went to therapy with you for social anxiety and perfectionism, you'd be guiding me towards actually being more social. And so, that sounds to me like maybe some exposure techniques. Am I all on my own when I do that? Do I do things with your support? I'm not even coming for treatment and I feel a little bit nervous thinking about, "Oh God, I got to be social when I'm afraid of being social." What would that look like?

  Cheryl: Yeah. Well, would definitely be with my support, and it may or may not be with my physical support in the moment of the exposure. I work entirely online right now, so some of my clients go off and do exposure on their own with some email or messaging support before and afterwards. But some like to meet up and we go out in person and we would go together, meet somewhere in public and try out to see how much we can engage with people and maybe even how much we can embarrass ourselves.

  Kevin: Okay. Oh, wow. So you're using probably some shame attacking when you go out. So for people who aren't familiar with the method of shame attacking, what that means, tell me if I'm right, is when I'm feeling very self-conscious and super concerned about what other people think of me, and I don't want to make a fool of myself in public, and so I start avoiding going places or talking to people, which leads to that kind of loneliness and loss of social skills and a problem that kind of feeds on itself. A way of breaking out of that trap that I've brought myself into is using something like shame attacking, which is not only ceasing to avoid possibly embarrassing myself, but going out and actually embarrassing myself, like doing something that pushes me way out of my comfort zone.

  That might be silly or goofy, and the reason why is because I get to experience in real time that it doesn't really have any negative consequences on me. Other people actually don't really care what I do in public. I remember doing shame attacking with the Tuesday group when it used to meet in person at Stanford with Dr. Burns. And there's this great therapist, Jacob Tower, who goes there and he's superstar in TEAM, and I was paired up with him and I had to do the shame attacking that he asked me to do. So, I'll just share like what my thing was that I had to do. So we went to the Stanford Mall, which is kind of this high end, like glitzy, I don't know, when you were talking about trying to impress people, like this is the place you go when you want to try and impress people. It's like a very upscale mall. And they had these very fancy jewelry stores inside.

  And so my shame attacking was I had to go into this fancy jewelry store in the Stanford Mall and go up to the salesperson and ask if they had any cubic zirconia in stock. And that was interesting how that went. It was really fun. I'm actually not afraid of embarrassing myself that much, but that sort of pushed me a little bit over my comfort zone. But I'm wondering, is there any kind of really effective time that shame attacking was helpful to you or to someone? And what was the activity that was done? Is there a good story about...?

  Cheryl: Well, actually to return to your earlier point that this sounds really intimidating, I have not had many takers.

  Kevin: On doing shame attacking, yeah.

  Cheryl: Yeah. So I've done a bit of my own, but often, people will opt for other versions of, you know, maybe a more gradual kind of exposure.

  Kevin: Yeah. Well, I like that you're saying that because I can imagine for somebody who's never experienced a social anxiety exposure exercise, that the idea of going on and trying to do something really embarrassing just sounds like no way, I'm not even going to - forget that therapist. There's no way. So what would you do as a kind of a stepping stone, you said you've done maybe less intimidating, like exposure; can kind of bring that to life for us a little bit.

  Cheryl: Well, one that comes to mind is a role playing method that we actually do in session which is a - because it's a role play, it's not a real life exposure, but it is exposure to the idea, to the role of someone who would be really critical and judgemental. And I'm thinking here of feared fantasy. So, that's a role playing method where the therapist is in the role of somebody who would be really rejecting and harsh, so the client has a chance to feel what that's like to kind of enter into that nightmare.

  Kevin: Yeah. I'm wondering if I could be a client right now and you could do a feared fantasy with me, would that be okay? Because I mentioned that I've had my own social anxiety problems, so one of the things that I struggle with is, as therapists, we're often invited to go to these networking events. And I often wind up going by myself, so I don't have a companion to kind of rely on to make myself feel more comfortable. And that's sort of on purpose of it. I'll actually talk to people I don't already know when I go. But I remember going to one recently and it was perfectly nice, and I'm sure the people there were really fine warm people, but everybody was already engaged in their own conversations.

  And then I walk in and I kind of felt like, you know, the odd man out. I didn't want to intrude on anybody's conversation and it felt kind of awkward and embarrassing, and I don't know, just all of my own shyness just went way up. And so, I'm having thoughts like, "Oh, people won't want to talk to me. If I try to introduce myself they're going to think I'm rude, or they're going to be annoyed by me. I'm going to come across as this desperate therapist who wants everybody to give me referrals, and people are going to judge me and think that I don't belong here for some reason, and I'm not going to fit in." So those are kind of my scary thoughts that I have in a moment like that.

  So let's say about, you know, maybe you and I have done some other work together and we've discovered that those are my kind of automatic negative thoughts that lead to my anxiety in a social setting. And you decided that maybe a method that we would try would be feared fantasy, maybe you could set it up and walk me through it and let's do it, and then people would see how that works. And again, I just want to kind of give credit where credit is due. This is a technique created by Dr. David Burns, the creator of TEAM CBT, and we've learned that from him and from other TEAM CBT teachers, right?

  Cheryl: Yep.

  Kevin: Yeah. So, is that okay if we do this?

  Cheryl: Yeah. And we're assuming here that we have a really strong trusting connection and that you're...

  Kevin: Completely. So the other elements of TEAM we've already done, we've done lots of testing and empathy, lots of assessment of resistance to bring - so that I'm like really pro change, I really want to get rid of my social anxiety and need to be perfect and liked. And so then, you're going to help me with this method, right?

  Cheryl: Great. So, can I use your name, Kevin?

  Kevin: Sure. Yeah, I'll be Kevin. That's fine. It makes it simpler for me.

  Cheryl: So Kevin, I'd like to try a technique called the Feared Fantasy. And this is a role play method where I would be playing a really harsh and judgemental therapist at this networking event that you attended. And this would give you a chance to sort of enter into that imaginary world and see what that would be like.

  Kevin: Okay, great. How does it work in that imaginary world?

  Cheryl: Good question. So I will be sharing your negative thoughts, in this fantasy world, I actually do believe all the things that you're worried that people believe them. And not only do I believe them, I'm going to say them out loud to you.

  Kevin: Wow. Okay.

  Cheryl: And then you...

  Kevin: It's kind of like my worst nightmare come to life here.

  Cheryl: And your job will be to defeat me one of three ways. One is a kind of radical acceptance to accept the thought with a sense of humor or peace about it. The other is a kind of a self-defense and rejecting me and my cruelty. And the third would be some combination of those two things.

  Kevin: Okay.

  Cheryl: Just a little bit of self-defense, a little bit of acceptance. Does that make sense?

  Kevin: Yeah, that does make sense.

  Cheryl: Great.

  Kevin: I'm just taking notes so I'll remember what you said.

  Cheryl: Yeah. So let's give me a name. How's Marcy?

  Kevin: That sounds great. You sound very judgemental, Marcy, already.

  Cheryl: I apologies to all Marcy's.

  Kevin: I'm sure there are very nice people, but I just picturing this very judgemental Marcy right now.

  Cheryl: Okay. So Kevin, I noticed you came in here and you didn't have anybody to talk to, and you were kind of imagining that none of us would want to talk to you because we were all in our own conversations and you were right, we don't want to talk to you.

  Kevin: Oh, wow. I think I'm a little bit taken aback that you're saying that to me right now. It sounds kind of harsh. And yet, you know, I guess I'll agree with you. Like, oftentimes people don't want to talk to me, and actually I think that that's okay. Maybe you're already busy and you've got your own thing you're doing. But I have to say, it does kind of hurt a little bit to hear you say that out loud to me. But I'm curious, so why would you not want to talk to me?

  Cheryl: Well, we all kind of got here already and we've formed our connections and now you're just being kind of rude and we're annoyed by you.

  Kevin: Oh yeah. I guess it is kind of rude of me to expect you to end your conversation with other people and talk to me. So, it makes sense to me that you'd maybe be annoyed by that. Wow. Again, that kind of stings, that kind of hurts that you're saying that, so I feel a little bit, I don't know, like maybe protecting myself a little bit and not talking to you anymore right now. So I think I might take a break and go, I don't know, grab a cheese plate or something. But thanks

  Cheryl: Be before you go, can I just let you know that I judge you?

  Kevin: Well, join the club, Marcy. That was really good, I'm glad you threw that in there. Ah, that is so funny.

  Cheryl: What was that like for you?

  Kevin: That was really helpful actually. Like, I know we're demonstrating this for other people to get something out of it, but that actually was helpful to me because it's so ludicrous. First of all, do the people on the patio, at this networking event even care that I walked in enough to judge? You know, not really. They're just going to like, "Oh, there's another therapist,", you know, they're not expending any energy on me at that moment. And the fact that they're judging me, I don't know, of course that says more about them than it does about me. And it can't hurt me that somebody is judging me in the long run.

  Cheryl: They're criticizing you for coming to want to talk to other therapists and an event explicitly designed for people.

  Kevin: For talking to other therapists and meeting people. Yeah. And it's so funny you show up because my whole life I've struggled with this on and off. I mean, I can remember crossing the street to avoid walking by people because I wouldn't want them to look at me and give me a judgemental look because that would hurt so much. And on the one hand that's sad and It's understandable. I saw you raise your hand, you know, I don't feel good that that's something you went through too. But also, the reason why I like this role play method that you just did with me, and I like doing that with people too, is that it shows just how ridiculous it would be for somebody - for like a grown person to actually be that judgemental of others and to say, "I judge you. How dare you walk by me right now. Look at your funny shirt," or whatever.

  Cheryl: How little I would want that person's friendship.

  Kevin: Yeah. I wouldn't care. I don't want to care about what they think of me. So, I'm curious, like, let's say that I am your patient or your client in a session and I've had this experience of you brought this to life for me and I now see how ludicrous it is to be concerned with the other people judging me. And I have this negative thought that's come up that we've been working with, which is the people at this event will judge me. Maybe you could walk me through like, how would I turn that into a new thought that would help me feel differently? What would, maybe you could help me do that because that's what I think we would do in a therapy session. Anytime we use a method, the purpose is to kind of prove that the negative thought isn't true.

  Cheryl: Yeah. So let's see. Tell me what worked. You said that that was really helpful to you, that you...

  Kevin: Because it just showed how absurd it is that a person would judge, and also, if they really would judge me that harshly for wanting to talk to people at an event that's designed for therapists to talk to each other and meet new therapists; would I even want to talk to them? Do I even want to connect with somebody who would judge me so harshly? Probably not. And the whole thing makes me laugh because it's so silly.

  Cheryl: So, those are the things that work. So, tell me the initial thought again.

  Kevin: Oh, the initial thought was the people at this networking event will judge me harshly if I try to talk to them.

  Cheryl: Okay. So what would you say to that thought now, taking into accounting things that...?

  Kevin: Yeah. Kind of like, "Well, so what?" I guess judgemental creeps do exist, so somebody might be judging me, but if they did that would really mean that there's something not so nice about them. It doesn't mean that I am like some fool or something, or that I'm not good enough or I'm somehow a bad networking event attendee because I tried to speak to people. But also, let's be real, this is a room full of adults, professionals who are therapists. They probably are not judging me that harshly, you know? And if I tried to strike up a conversation with somebody, they would probably at least be courteous about it. They're not going to like shun me and send me out of the room or something, which is what I think I'm afraid is going to happen.

  Cheryl: Okay. I got some of that.

  Kevin: That's a lot. Sorry.

  Cheryl: But I think if we could distill it down, and you might want to write this down next to your negative thoughts. So what, judgey creeps do exist but that doesn't make me a fool. In all honesty, these people are probably nice. Does that capture...?

  Kevin: That does. And what was the last thing?

  Cheryl: In all honesty, these people are probably kind.

  Kevin: Yeah, exactly. These people are probably kind.

  Cheryl: And how much do you believe that new thought?

  Kevin: Oh, I believe that a hundred percent.

  Cheryl: Are you just saying that or is that...?

  Kevin: No, that's really true. I really believe it. Yeah, that's clearly true.

  Cheryl: And how much do you believe the initial negative thought?

  Kevin: I don't believe that anymore. Or if I do, it doesn't bother me. Like it's a minute possibility, but I don't think that that is what's going to happen, so I don't think that that can actually be something I believe anymore.

  Cheryl: Great. Well that works then.

  Kevin: Thank you. And I guess I'll just mention that, you know, because Cheryl and I use TEAM; CBT, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, is designed to change how we feel by changing the way that we think, because when we're feeling an intense negative feeling like anxiety, it's probably being caused by thoughts that have something about them that's not true. And what Cheryl did was she brought to life my worst nightmare so that we could act it out. And I confronted that fear and realized that that was ridiculous. And I got to experience that, and it's actually not something that I'm afraid of. And it kind of got me in touch with my own sense of humor, and what it did was it did change how I feel by changing the way that I think. Like when you helped me come up with that new positive thought just now, that really does make a big shift in how I feel, now that I don't believe, "Oh, these people are judging me and don't want me to talk to them."

  Cheryl: There is I think only a certain level that this kind of exposure can trigger. Because your anxiety probably would go up again the next time you're at a networking event, and it would help that you had this new thought. but you probably still would feel, you know, your heart rate might get a little bit faster, you might still have those kind of physiological symptoms; until you were in physical space enough times that it didn't bother you anymore.

  Kevin: I love that. And I'm glad that you pointed that out because a role play method like that is great. And it did bring the fear to life, and I did address it to a certain extent. But in order to make the real change that I would be looking for, I would need to do lots of networking events or lots of going up and talking to people who I don't know until I'm used to it, and until it just doesn't bother me anymore. And that doesn't mean that I'm not going to feel anxious when I do that, but I probably will feel anxious a lot when I first do it. And I think just for you and me to talk about like as therapists and how therapy works, tell me if you agree with this.

  This is kind of my own fifth grade level of neurology that I've learned. Kind of like what's going on in the brain You know, anxiety is not bad. Anxiety is why you and I are here right now. We're related to the people who were afraid of things. Our ancient ancestors who are the ones that ran away from tigers, not the ones who went, "Ooh, kitty, how cute." So, it's necessary for our survival to have anxiety. You wouldn't want to get rid of it completely. But what's happening is, that part of the brain that's responsible for that fight, flight, or freeze response that's kept human beings alive for as long as we have been, it gets triggered now in modern times by things that are not predators. A tiger is not making me afraid to go to the networking event. My life is not in danger. They're not predators who are going to attack me, literally, but my brain doesn't know the difference. That part of my brain still kicks in and does things like make my heart rate go up, I'm probably get kind of sweaty, the adrenaline's rushing, blood's pumping into my muscle so that I can run away if I have to.

  Cheryl: Or fight somebody, I can see.

  Kevin: Or fight somebody. I'm going to get into a fight with a psychologist, you know, in the parking lot at the family therapy center. You know, that's not needed. And so, our brain, it hasn't adapted enough to like what our modern causes of our current day causes of anxiety. So the reason why exposure is so important, is that I need to go into those situations instead of avoiding them so that I can retrain my brain to tolerate the anxiety that I will feel. So it's not so much that I need to not feel anxious or not care about what other people think of me. It's probably good for me to be a little bit anxious because there's a lot at stake. I've got a career I'm building, I've got a reputation, I want to have good relationships with therapists. So if I didn't care at all, just imagine what kind of mess I would make of my life going to this networking event. But it's too much, and I don't need to have my stress response kick in just because I want to go up and hand somebody my business card and introduce myself to them. Am I describing that in a way that seems true?

  Cheryl: Yeah. One of the ways I like to think about it is, you know how you learn not to touch a hot stove? Is by touching a hot stove. So you have some kind of experience where, you know, maybe somebody does have a negative reaction to you in a social situation, maybe as a little kid. And I was a very inept little kid at social interactions. And so, you can sort of... the pain that you feel when you touch a hot stove actually creates a response, a physical response before you have any conscious thought about it.

  Kevin: Of course. Yeah.

  Cheryl: If suddenly you're now in a place with things that look like stoves, but are actually like a desk or something that you need to be really comfortable, or maybe you work in a kitchen, I don't know, stretching the metaphor here. You need to feel really comfortable and not afraid of stoves; you need to teach the physical part of your response system, in addition to all of your conscious thoughts about it. You need to have experiences of touching the thing that looks like a stove and not feeling the pain in order to convince the physical response.

  Kevin: No, it's okay. I'm following you. I think it's helpful what you're saying.

  Cheryl: There's only so much that you can do with conscious thought. There's also a physiological element and that needs to be treated too.

  Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know we're coming to the end of our time together here, and so I'm just imagining very fortunate people out there in the State of Georgia who will hopefully be hearing your skill and warmth and empathy and ability to treat people and help people get better. And so let's say that I've listened to this podcast or this video recording and I really, I think, "You know, Cheryl, I want to talk to this person, and I want to see if I can get some help with my perfectionism or social anxiety." What would the next step be if they wanted to reach out to you?

  Cheryl: The best way to get in touch is through my website. There is a link from my website, which is again, bitbybitcounseling.com And there's a link to schedule a free 15 minute consultation. And that's a chance for clients to get to know me, for me to get to know them, and to see for both of us if it will be a good fit. And if I think that I have what it would take to help them, and if they think that I would be someone they could relate to and trust.

  Kevin: Wonderful. Well, I don't think that they could be in better hands. I certainly relate to you and trust you, Cheryl, and it was really great to do that method. I've, of course, have helped people with that method myself, and I've seen it demonstrated in workshops before, and it was really nice a new experience for me to like really experience it, especially when you said, I judge you. That was really good. That helped me a lot. So you can judge me anytime you want to, Cheryl, that'll be helpful to me.

  Cheryl: This was to delight. Thank you, Kevin.

  Kevin: Thank you. And I just want to say thank you so much to you, Cheryl, for joining us here and letting anybody who may be listening to this hopefully get some great benefit out of it. And until next time, this was Tools for Change and you can see information about upcoming episodes in the credits after that are going to roll in just a moment. So, thank you, Cheryl.

  Cheryl: Thank you, Kevin.

  Kevin: See you soon.